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Kuole Zhilarsk	Posted - 2003.09.04 22:10:00 - [1] Quote: The CCPs inability to deal with the abuse of trust ingame and their encouraging of betrayals will as we've already seen example of spill over in real life intrusions and very illegal acts being performed. I demand a 10 second inability to trace my IP! This is hardly an area for CCP to deal with. Espionage is going to happen in a game like this. Infiltrating a corporation with the sole purpose of gaining information to pass along is valid. Legality shouldn't enter it unless an actual illegal act is used to gain information (such as hacking and such.) I fail to see why people hold CCP responsibile for the 'harmless' espionage acts - the actual ingame roleplayed elements where people join a corporation with the sole intent of passing on information to their masters. Indeed, it could be frowned upon as being unethical, but intelligence is necessary and having spies is just one means to reach an end. I personally fail to see the problem of spies and thus expect them in this game. What I also expect, but do not condone is the use of hacking to gain access to information. I can sympathize with people who are hacked for information, but what I do not understand is how legality is questioned for the simple ingame rp actions. It's bizarre to me. I came from Planetarion to this game and within that spies were a common thing. Every alliance had its own intel network and getting people into an alliance to do your bidding was common place. The alliance I worked for and helped command had the policy of assuming their was always a spy at member level. Planetarion alliances thus had to create counter measures to use against spies - this could be active internal sorting, or just extremely strict recruitment (if any.) Never once did the legality of it come into question because it was just a game. The only legal issue as I stated earlier was for hacking, DOS attacks and the like. I heard of an example within Eve where TTI threatened legal action upon parts of their forums being leaked. To be fair, I will not judge them based upon this second hand info. If the leak was due to the forums being hacked then fair enough, but if it was one of their own members leaking information then legality should not have been brought into it. Sour grapes in my opinion. In summary, I agree with the original poster. For all the hatred and scorn to spies and espionage, its a perfectly valid tactic to use as long as it is kept to legal methods.
Kuole Zhilarsk Caldari The Legion.	Posted - 2003.09.04 22:10:00 - [2] Quote: The CCPs inability to deal with the abuse of trust ingame and their encouraging of betrayals will as we've already seen example of spill over in real life intrusions and very illegal acts being performed. I demand a 10 second inability to trace my IP! This is hardly an area for CCP to deal with. Espionage is going to happen in a game like this. Infiltrating a corporation with the sole purpose of gaining information to pass along is valid. Legality shouldn't enter it unless an actual illegal act is used to gain information (such as hacking and such.) I fail to see why people hold CCP responsibile for the 'harmless' espionage acts - the actual ingame roleplayed elements where people join a corporation with the sole intent of passing on information to their masters. Indeed, it could be frowned upon as being unethical, but intelligence is necessary and having spies is just one means to reach an end. I personally fail to see the problem of spies and thus expect them in this game. What I also expect, but do not condone is the use of hacking to gain access to information. I can sympathize with people who are hacked for information, but what I do not understand is how legality is questioned for the simple ingame rp actions. It's bizarre to me. I came from Planetarion to this game and within that spies were a common thing. Every alliance had its own intel network and getting people into an alliance to do your bidding was common place. The alliance I worked for and helped command had the policy of assuming their was always a spy at member level. Planetarion alliances thus had to create counter measures to use against spies - this could be active internal sorting, or just extremely strict recruitment (if any.) Never once did the legality of it come into question because it was just a game. The only legal issue as I stated earlier was for hacking, DOS attacks and the like. I heard of an example within Eve where TTI threatened legal action upon parts of their forums being leaked. To be fair, I will not judge them based upon this second hand info. If the leak was due to the forums being hacked then fair enough, but if it was one of their own members leaking information then legality should not have been brought into it. Sour grapes in my opinion. In summary, I agree with the original poster. For all the hatred and scorn to spies and espionage, its a perfectly valid tactic to use as long as it is kept to legal methods.
Kuole Zhilarsk	Posted - 2003.09.05 15:06:00 - [3] Quote: I have no problem with in-game spying. Joining other corps in game is part of the game and it's all good... I do have a problem with invasion of private forums. That is not in game and not cool. Yes it is "about the game", but not "in the game". Big difference... The game server is CCP's and the forum server is my private proparty. So, spy in game all you want, it is cool. Of course I know TTI has spies, and if we find them they are dead (in game). Ah, this is the part we disagree on then. The thing is, any important news or information is not going to be garnered through Eve ingame. It would be on IRC or through boards. The only way to pass on this information is to get into them. What I approve of is the actual infiltration of the corporation. What I do not approve of is the hacking aspect. When you accept a member and give them access to the forums, you must be aware that they may be working for another person. It is the corporations responsibility to defeat such espionage by bringing in security checks and security levels. What a corporation should not have to do is build in lots of virus protection, firewalls, routers, backup servers and the like to protect against harmful spy techniques that are also illegal. End of the day whilst you may consider it an invasion of your private forums, you need allow them access in the first place (this is for the people you accept into your corp). To the last sentence in that, too right. Kill spies on sight ingame and kick them from the corporation - or use them to your benefit. Quote: I really wish CCP would implement a feature they talked about in beta that allows CEOs to see all alternate characters of their employees. However, if they do that I belive spying should still be allowed with a "Spying skill", which if high enough would let them avoid detection by the CEO or coproate security's skill level. I dunno... needs some design work but you know what I zm getting at. I disagree at this stage of the game. Such an option would essentially kill espionage except for the people who can afford to buy another copy of the game with cd-key to use as a spy account. Thats just one exploitation to get around it, and I'm sure others can be thought of. Also, I think CCP have far greater things to worry about - things that Corporations cant solve by themselves. Corps just need to be vigilent to spies and to act in accordance to the fact that espionage is rife. In the future, making espionage an actual skill/career in the game may be interesting. I respect your viewpoint however, as mine is jaded from my time in Planetarion.
Kuole Zhilarsk Caldari The Legion.	Posted - 2003.09.05 15:06:00 - [4] Quote: I have no problem with in-game spying. Joining other corps in game is part of the game and it's all good... I do have a problem with invasion of private forums. That is not in game and not cool. Yes it is "about the game", but not "in the game". Big difference... The game server is CCP's and the forum server is my private proparty. So, spy in game all you want, it is cool. Of course I know TTI has spies, and if we find them they are dead (in game). Ah, this is the part we disagree on then. The thing is, any important news or information is not going to be garnered through Eve ingame. It would be on IRC or through boards. The only way to pass on this information is to get into them. What I approve of is the actual infiltration of the corporation. What I do not approve of is the hacking aspect. When you accept a member and give them access to the forums, you must be aware that they may be working for another person. It is the corporations responsibility to defeat such espionage by bringing in security checks and security levels. What a corporation should not have to do is build in lots of virus protection, firewalls, routers, backup servers and the like to protect against harmful spy techniques that are also illegal. End of the day whilst you may consider it an invasion of your private forums, you need allow them access in the first place (this is for the people you accept into your corp). To the last sentence in that, too right. Kill spies on sight ingame and kick them from the corporation - or use them to your benefit. Quote: I really wish CCP would implement a feature they talked about in beta that allows CEOs to see all alternate characters of their employees. However, if they do that I belive spying should still be allowed with a "Spying skill", which if high enough would let them avoid detection by the CEO or coproate security's skill level. I dunno... needs some design work but you know what I zm getting at. I disagree at this stage of the game. Such an option would essentially kill espionage except for the people who can afford to buy another copy of the game with cd-key to use as a spy account. Thats just one exploitation to get around it, and I'm sure others can be thought of. Also, I think CCP have far greater things to worry about - things that Corporations cant solve by themselves. Corps just need to be vigilent to spies and to act in accordance to the fact that espionage is rife. In the future, making espionage an actual skill/career in the game may be interesting. I respect your viewpoint however, as mine is jaded from my time in Planetarion.

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